is blood actually as good as people think it is?

I think Blood sucks when you first play it. It sucks for a couple hours. But at some point, it clicks. You take the dynamite in hand and throw it. You see explosions. Your dopamine receptors are being overloaded. Cultists keep dropping like flies. You have become John Blood.

That said, I like the game. Specific enemies are complete buzzkills (all bosses, ghosts, hands). The level design isn't anything to write home about, but it kept me amused with new locations constantly popping up. Caleb's voicelines are all just movie or book quotes.

1 hour ago, Antroid said:

Does the "throw dynamite around every corner" strat work without memorizing where every ambush in every level is first? Do they give you enough dynamite? I've fully beaten the game once, a while back, but I dont even remember on which difficulty, or what my playstyle was, other than the fact that I was definitely save-scumming a lot. But I've been starting different episodes now and again and playing a few levels to see if its still as bad as I thought initially. The impression I have is that dealing with cultist ambushes is very dependent on foreknowledge, or at least intuition developed through enough exposure to the level design style, which is really not my cup of tea. Though to be honest, it really does get easier past the first episode, trying the other ones tends to be less frustrating than going for another attempt at a playthrough from the very beginning. The train station in particular is the stuff of nightmares for some reason.

 

Also, what's the most authentic way to play through it (but with the savegame bug fixed) these days?

Absolutely, the idea is to instinctively throw dynamite around most corners, or simply peer around them just enough to get an idea of what's there. The game provides you plenty of dynamite in the levels. They're not always around every single corner. A lot of the times, you have to deal with them from far away. It's usually a distance where they can easily snipe you out or their dynamite can reach you, but you might have a hard time returning the favor. The easiest thing in these cases (and again, there are a lot), is to serve up one flare shot per enemy you can see and get out of their view, it will kill them. It has full range and even kind of clicks onto enemies if a couple of inches off target.

Another thing you can do is use the tommy gun alt fire around corners or at ambushes in general and it makes quick work of them while minimizing the damage you take. You won't know which corners have ambushes, but there are ways to deal with that. For example, the enemies tend to run towards you when you're out of their sight. So what you can do is slightly step out of a corner, alert any enemies that are there, immediately retreat and even keep a small distance (since they by instinct will probably toss dynamite in your direction), and just let them run into your line of fire. It can be the bullet weapons or something like primary fire dynamite around the corner and they'll thoughtlessly run into it.

This only applies to cultists. Every other enemy type are much more feasible to tackle head-on, even when they're in groups.

I still don't see an actual design flaw in the game that's enough to ruin the fun. Cultists are very stupid on lower difficulties and don't throw tnt, they also die instantly to pretty much sneezing on them. The bosses have way less health and there aren't as many pests and fanatics around.

Zombies also don't resurrect in it, they just pretend to die (accompanied by a louder death sound because they are terrible actors).

Imo people might change their mind about the game by playing on skill 2 or 3, But the game has an even worse case of "UV is only way to play" propagated by the fan base and presenting the game as a masochist special dish.

I think it is quite overrated.

Some points:

Of the main Build games it has the most inconsistent level design. When it's good it is excellent, but when it's not the maps are just awful incoherent maze designs.

Blood has by far the most awful player movement of all the classic FPS's I remember.

The difficulty ramp-up between skills is ridiculous. It is the only old game where I never progressed beyond the second skill level because it quickly stops being fun with both more enemies and increasing enemy health.

The cynic in me says that the main reason why Blood is so popular is the way its dynamite works, plus its entire debris mechanics. There's something weirdly satisfying about blowing away enemies like that, but it's not enough to elevate the entire game for me.

Blood is my favourite classic build game. I enjoy how adventurous the levels are, and the level design supporting representational and abstract environments in the way of the build engine games can do best. 

Player movement is of the highest order for FPS at the time and the gunplay is superb, weapons tend to have particular roles in combat, and even for the few novel cases, they feel great to use. 

I don’t understand when people complain about the combat difficulty, I get the impression a lot of people come from Doom or a lesser extent Duke and expect the same rhythm in combat. Blood feels like spikes of challenge rather than a smooth ramp, enemy encounters carry more weight.

There are of course some rough edges like the gargoyle exploit, strange level-to-level difficulty cadence, and wonky build engine flaws, but overall I think it is one of the finest examples of classic FPS. 

1 hour ago, betabox said:

~snip~

Thanks, I will keep this in mind for future attempts. Man, it's HARD to adjust my playstyle for fps games that require an approach I'm not used to from games like dooms, quakes, serious sams or even turoks. This is probably also why I don’t like the gameplay in half-life (mainly against the army) or FEAR. Some things just refuse to click.

6 minutes ago, kwc said:

I don’t understand when people complain about the combat difficulty, I get the impression a lot of people come from Doom or a lesser extent Duke and expect the same rhythm in combat.

This is definitely true in my case. I've only really played fpses that play like those, so blood's expected tactics just do not feel proper to me, it always feels like I'm being cheap to couteract an unbalanced game, even though that's the expected playstyle.

There's nothing more satisfying than to crouch(prone), aim your Sawed-off up to the sky and blast both barrels the zombie you just baited around the corner, tossing a dynamite around a corner on a cultist comes second.

Blood's biggest strength IMO is the weapon design and functions. It's insanely hard on Extra Crispy but if you play it enough, you learn how to cheese the funk out of enemies. The second episode is the highlight of the original four episodes and has a really strong atmosphere and memorable levels. I think just for that episode it's worth playing.

5 hours ago, Xaser said:

resurrecting zombies (if you don't figure out you need to blow 'em up)

Very good points you made, but I need to correct this. Zombies don't resurrect, they tend to get knocked out, especially on skill 1 and 2 whenever they are hit by pitchforks or some weapon). Though they still die eventually.

They rarely ever get knocked out on skill 3 and onwards.

i think i'm gonna replay a bit of e2 later, because this has caused a lot of discussion and now i'm wondering if maybe the later episodes are primarily the ones where the issues with the game come to the forefront. the last time i played i got up to the beginning of e4 before i finally just stopped playing out of frustration, so maybe i'll be pleasantly surprised if it's only the later bits that annoy the hell out of me.

25 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

Very good points you made, but I need to correct this. Zombies don't resurrect, they tend to get knocked out, especially on skill 1 and 2 whenever they are hit by pitchforks or some weapon). Though they still die eventually.

 

They rarely ever get knocked out on skill 3 and onwards.

To a brand-new player, it looks like "wtf, the guy I killed just got back up again??" -- it's something that contributes to the game's early difficulty spike, since it's a surprise mechanic the player's got to learn, most likely the hard way. :P

It's a nice game; I played it for the first time last year, and a couple of other FPS I was missing, such as Shadow Warrior, The zombies can be annoying in lower difficulties, I noticed, since they just get knocked out really easily, and as a new player, you think they're dead while they're not. Usually, you deal with zombies with a flare gun and a pitchfork, if you like.

If you're playing lightly broiled or with lower difficulties, it's better to use the flare gun as only one shot is required to dispatch them.

From Well Done onwards, what I do is one flaregun and a pitchfork, or I use only the pitchfork. Other enemies require different approaches; one dynamite toss can kill in one shot bloated butchers and normal gargoyles, if I'm remembering correctly about the latter; otherwise, you can use the Tesla for the gargoyle, which will kill them shortly, or the Vodoo doll, which is excellent against gargoyles.

Cheogh, or the stone gargoyle, can be nasty, but there's a trick to it, and you just have to go in melee range and he'll end up using his melee attack. Then you can back away and start blasting him with the tesla until he dies repeating this process. Rats, spiders, and hands can safely use the spray can, which is excellent for these enemies but also for zombies and bloated butchers alike. There's some differences with the sourceports from what I've heard about the spray behaviour, but overall, it's still good to use.

On 1/16/2024 at 3:15 AM, roadworx said:

 

i know that it's known as a hard game, but the difficulty feels much more along the lines of "irritating bullshit" than it does "challenge that you can overcome". 

 

now, i do still enjoy blood despite its flaws. it's just that i don't think that it stacks up against its contemporaries as well as a lot of people say it does, and i certainly wouldn't call it one of the best 90s fps games. it's a decent game, just very flawed. great atmosphere can only get you so far when your gameplay just isn't the best.

 

 

I think I heard somewhere that Blood was actually designed with Co-op in mind, so they intentionally made the difficulties one notch higher than what would be expected in a purely singleplayer game. In other words, playing the second hardest difficulty like you would in Doom is actually more like playing on Nightmare than on Ultra-Violence. Better to go with the Hurt Me Plenty equivalent when playing solo.

The game doesn't have any flaws, unless you count a game still using the mid-90s Build engine a flaw when true 3D graphics had been around at least a couple of years by that point. If you're just complaining about difficulty, you can always just lower that. You don't have to "git gud." Difficulties exist for a reason and if one is too punishing, there's no shame in changing to what feels best.

That said, as much as I respect Shadow Warrior and Blood, I've always enjoyed Duke Nukem the most, of the holy Build trinity. 

3 hours ago, Antroid said:

Thanks, I will keep this in mind for future attempts. Man, it's HARD to adjust my playstyle for fps games that require an approach I'm not used to from games like dooms, quakes, serious sams or even turoks. This is probably also why I don’t like the gameplay in half-life (mainly against the army) or FEAR. Some things just refuse to click.

Yeah when I first played Half-Life on Hard difficulty, it felt less fun than I remembered playing on Medium/Normal.

However, the more I discovered all the secret locations and got a better feel for how to use a lot of the guns I mostly ignored or overlooked on  Normal difficulty, I realized it's actually a genius shooter. It's just not like Quake where you can mindlessly shoot and any gun will do just fine for anything, and the monsters will behave predictably and be pretty stupid. The a.i. is more challenging and their reflexes are sharp. It requires more skill/challenge, (and also more quick loading ;) ) It is just a rather different style.

Whilst talking about inconsistencies with enemies, I think the Phantasms are the coolest enemy out the lot, maybe not fun to fight but the shrieking horror that is the encounter wins from rule of cool alone.

One thing also is the zombies, they play 2 louder more distinct sounds when properly killed and the more perceptive of us will cotton onto that real quick.

A lot of Blood's roster is figuring out who works how and the best way to flatten them, examples like 6 flares for gargoyles finishes them nicely, butchers are slow and the aerosol can works wonders, the explosions sends shit packing so don't throw it behind the cerberus...

It's quite nuanced, I like it, except the Stone Gargoyles fuck those DPS checks.

These are my go-to tactics across E1 -E6.

The pitchfork with circlestrafing can wreck nearly all enemy types except cultists and hell hounds, without you taking any damage. Although the hell hounds can still be cheesed with it. Even the first and third episode bosses (or just stay crawling up close to them altogether). But obviously don't overdo it due to the time it takes and how repetitive it'll get. But it's perfect for saving on certain ammo.

Zombies - pitchfork circlestrafe on up to 4 (although you're untouchable against any sized crowd of them). Dynamite against 3 or more for effectiveness and for it to be fun.

Bloated butcher - Pitchfork circlestrafing also makes them harmless. But use as li ttle as either 2 flare shots or 3-4 spray rounds each. Or for crowds, alt fire spray can or flare; or any explosive.

Cultists - 1 flare each (or 1 flare + 1 shotgun or few machine gun rounds on the dynamite ones) to be sneaky. Against up to a few when close by, machine gun or shotgun alt fire (or primary fired quickly). Dynamite around corners or on crowds (switch out for the remote detonator on occasion for Duke3D style pipebomb fun), napalm launcher on distant crowds. If there's just one around the corner, I also really like either hte alt fire shotgun, rapid primary shotgun (should just take 2 shots), or simply the machine gun. The voodoo doll is an insanely effective sniper rifle that hits them as long as they're in view; each hit stuns them for a few seconds, making them run away. This is immeasurably useful against both far away cultist enemies that can easily chip away at your health and you can't, and when they're underwater.

Spiders, hands, mini calebs - shotgun or machine gun; they go down in 1 to 2 shotgun rounds each (usually 1 for the hands). Dynamite on a crowd. But they're completely harmless when you're even just a few inches off the ground from them.

Gargoyle - pitchfork circlestrafe mainly to save ammo (mostly applies to e1). 1 direct shot with the napalm launcher each. Or as little as 1 dynamite direct hit to one, or toss into a crowd. The tesla cannon and voodoo doll make quick work of them too.

Hell hounds - 4 measly tesla rounds.

Pods - shotgun alt fire up close. Or just dynamite.

Phantasms - 4 alt shotgun blasts. It's easy to isolate individual ones out of crowds for this. Even these enemies are completely harmless to circlestrafing. And yeah, you can pitchfork them very easily this way.

Cheogh (e1) - napalm and dynamite from a distance, followed by circlestrafing with bullet weapons right up close. For the stone gargoyles, circle strafe with tesla or voodoo up close to drop them real quick. Or cheese all of them out by staying crouched. When you're up close to them, they just try scratching you like the regular gargoyle does.

Shial (e2) - dynamite and napalm. Or bullet weapon alt fire on her and the mother spider variants. Tesla cannon up close shreds the mother spiders up.

Cerberus - Tesla cannon or voodoo doll circlestrafing up close to waste them pretty easily. Or crouch up close to cheese them out and make them completely harmless.

Tchernobog - guns akimbo with any of napalm cannon, tesla cannon or shotgun. Although single tesla napalm pelting are still really good. Or voodoo doll from a distance for complete safety.

Beasts - take on 1 at a time. Stay far away at all times and make them chase you around the perimeter. Use mainly the voodoo and tesla. The machine gun and shotgun primary can supplement them; use short bursts of fire. Do not use explosives as they push them right up to you. For their cultist 1st phase, just follow the usual Cultist strategy, or you can lob a couple napalm to drop each one quickly

13 hours ago, Kinsie said:

Also, the Death Wish mapset remains the best BUILD game of all time, and it looks like it will become even bestester in the future, hopefully sometime this year.

I don't know about everybody else, but the perpetual updates/reboots that this project (and seemingly others...?) get within the Blood scene make me put off playing them forever...

I really want to like Blood, but I struggle with it. The art, soundtrack and atmosphere are top notch, but I find the gameplay clunky and awkward in a way that Duke Nukem 3D (the only Build game I have experience with) never gave me problems with. I never played it as a kid, so I don't have the nostalgia or intuition that I have with something like Doom or Quake. I guess I just suck at Blood :p 

1 minute ago, Dynamo said:

I don't know about everybody else, but the perpetual updates/reboots that this project (and seemingly others...?) get within the Blood scene make me put off playing them forever...

Just try it it's worth it! I played it the last year as well. Very atmospheric and beautiful design level wise.

18 minutes ago, Dynamo said:

I don't know about everybody else, but the perpetual updates/reboots that this project (and seemingly others...?) get within the Blood scene make me put off playing them forever...

I would advise to not overthink too much about future updates and just play it if you really want to do so. You can always experience the newer version if you ever decide to revisit it.

I can definitely vouch for Death Wish. It's an awesome mapset.

Yes it is as good as people think it is. If you think its too hard turn down the difficulty. Don't expect it to be like Doom and go straight into Hard lol. Because it's definitely a challenge I overcame many many times thru out the years.

On 1/16/2024 at 12:42 PM, roadworx said:

what's even funnier is to hear you say that when i'm very much a fan of 90s wads. maybe, just maybe, you don't know what you're talking about with that :)

 

...lol. you goofy motherfucker.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to get all hostile, I figured this was a thread for people's opinions. I didn't say blood was perfect but I like it a lot, some people don't and that's fine but it should be just as acceptable to like something as it is to not like it. I've no interest in solely bashing the game so I suppose I'll leave my answer to the thread's title as is and carry on elsewhere.

well, it's an escape from reality for a while. It's an ok game.

Just going by my limited knowledge and brief experience of the game itself...

Yes.

But here's a hot take of mine: contrary to popular opinion, while I think Blood is a much better Build engine game than Duke Nukem 3D, I don't think Blood is the best Build engine game of all time, that title belongs to Shadow Warrior and is solely reserved for that game above all else. 

• Quite good setting (music, level design, etc... in fact level design is sometimes very cool). Weapons are pretty solid.
• Gameplay pretty annoying (I assume everyone has already mentioned how build engine hitscanners often seem to hit you on the very first frame they can see you. Well I'm mentioning it again.) The fact that you can apparently make some enemies harmless just by holding crouch is pretty bad. Scaling monster health by difficulty is silly. Bosses being palette swaps of enemies you've seen already is underwhelming (like imagine if you fought hell knights throughout doom e1 and then on e1m8 the boss was barons....)
• I don't like Caleb as a "character". He's not funny or interesting imo.

Civvie told me it was one of the best shooters of all time, so that's my opinion

Overall, Blood tends to be my favorite of the era, primarily on gameplay/atmosphere. I heard someone describe combat as "a chess game" and I think that's fair. If you understand the loop, it's super fluid and easy, but it takes a ton of trial and error to master the progression. I think that the Blood designers were quicksave scummers like myself, and I find that formula heavily rewarding. I regard it far more highly than any 90s shooter.

I predominantly play it on skill 4/5

Civvie may be dead wrong on TNT and Quake 2, but his opinion on Blood might not be glowing enough.

Civvie told me it was one of the best shooters of all time, so that's my opinion

Civvie told me it was one of the best shooters of all time, so it was nice to feel validated about a game I'd been playing since the late 90's.

I think the Build games are a little too realistic for their own good, and that gameplay is already starting to take a back seat in Duke 3d compared to Doom. So I think it's more a matter of taste -- which has the most compelling theme, etc. The big 3 all have a high level of polish, so I see it as an apples vs oranges choice.